Suggestions

So, Lair space and Hibernal Den suggestions are getting mixed up, so, in an effort to focus on the problems that players feel the Hibernal Den will have, I am making this suggestion.

From @Lara8 post on the Lair suggestions thread:

1. 30-days cooldown

2. no familiar bonding

3. possibly not being able to gene denned dragons

4. whether denning a dragon messes with its breeding cooldown

1. The 30 days cooldown does seem somewhat excessive, but I understand that there should be some penalty for removing dragons from the feature. What it should be, I don't really know, I just know I haven't really liked the current suggestions about alternatives.

2. This one, I actually like. While it would be nice to be able to bond those familiars, it does make sense to me that a hibernal den wouldn't have dragons bonding with familiars. HOwever, I can also understand why people wouldn't like this.

3 and 4. are two that I really wouldn't like. I have several dragons that I breed infrequently or don't plan to fight or breed, but they still need genes, and so I would hate to have to move the dragons out to simply give them a gene, I feel would look gorgeous with them. I would also hate to have to bring the dragons I want tobreed on a whim out and then not be able to to, due to their breeding cooldown resetting.

I think 1 & 4 can combine with the den cooldown applied to how long the dragons need to be IN the den instead of out of den, and keep the breeding cooldown ticking normally or at a little extra time (like in the den they have extra 2~5 days of cooldown, so for guardians 20 instead of 15). So we can wait for their breeding cooldown while they're inside. Of course it would be best to not increase the time but this can reduce the current concerns of taking out a pair to breed but have to wait for the cooldown, as well as applying a restriction so the den is not just a very temp storage. It also solves the universal cooldown problem where you can buy a dragon on den cooldown and can't put it in if the buyer desires.

And I agree 3 is worrying. The reply we got from the update thread regarding gene/breed change while in den was, quote, "we're still determining whether this will be possible, but right now we don't think it will be an issue!"

I wouldn't mind if the breeding cooldown were increased for them being put in the den, because then I would know I could take them out on X day. It is just if I take them out and THEN have to wait until they are ready because their breeding cooldown was affected that I wouldn't like. (I am super forgetful at times, and I just know if I had to wait, I would completely forget I wanted to breed those dragons :D)

[quote] It is just if I take them out and THEN have to wait until they are ready because their breeding cooldown was affected that I wouldn't like.[/quote] Same, particularly for dragons that were already RTB when they went in. (I've got a lot of breeding-project kids I don't have mates for [b]yet[/b], but I'm keeping them because I could still find one.) If this were the case, it would severely hinder the viability of the den for me. Re familiars: I have very little investment in this one, because I'm at a point where I don't need to awaken many of them, but I think it boils down to whether the restriction is for technical, punitive, or lore purposes. There could be a reason in the new coding that makes bonding with a denned dragon's familiar unfeasible. It might be like the 30-day cooldown, a penalty for keeping the dragon in the den instead of in your 'real' lair. Or it might be that the admins want to emphasize the 'hibernal' aspect, in which case it would make sense that a sleeping/dormant dragon couldn't bond with their friend. Considering the many vehement objections to putting dragons in a 'trophy case' on the other thread, though, it might be better for den's public image for that aspect of it to be de-emphasized a bit in future updates. (Still not an issue for me personally, I'll lore-justify it any way I like, but many will see it differently, just as some still see exalting a dragon as banishing or even killing it.)

I like most the rules so far for the den as it's use as a place to just show off special dragons. For me that would be my memorial dragons. I am uncertain what I think about the geneing aspect, but from where I can see if we can alter their bios we should be able to alter their genes. Though I may be missing something

As long as we can still mess around with their bios, I'm fine with the limitations. I do hope concerns regarding breeding cooldowns will be addressed before launch, but I think the other parts were well thought out.
I don't think it makes much sense to alter a dragon's breed/patterns while it is asleep, they are canonically sentient beings and might want to be awake when making life-changing desicions? :p

As long as we can change apparel, bios and accents on the hibernating dragons, I'm cool with it. Being able to change genes would be a great plus, but I'd be fine with having to un-hibernate and then wait for 30 days before placing them back, as constant regening is not something most people do all the time so it shouldn't become a huge issue.

I imagine hibernal lair as something more or less permanent, you're supposed to put dragon there and it would stay there indefinitely, taking it out is a measure in case you change your mind (like unexalting), not a feature that's supposed to be used all the time, thus the penalties. I mean, if you use the dragon for breeding, there's no need to put it into hibernation? It allows you not to waste the food if you don't use the dragon for breeding and coli (the only things where it counts), but if you intend to take it out for breeding regularly, it's basically exploiting the system? Or am I getting it wrong?

[quote name="Valemora" date="2018-10-29 09:49:22" ] As long as we can change apparel, bios and accents on the hibernating dragons, I'm cool with it. Being able to change genes would be a great plus, but I'd be fine with having to un-hibernate and then wait for 30 days before placing them back, as constant regening is not something most people do all the time so it shouldn't become a huge issue. I imagine hibernal lair as something more or less permanent, you're supposed to put dragon there and it would stay there indefinitely, taking it out is a measure in case you change your mind (like unexalting), not a feature that's supposed to be used all the time, thus the penalties. I mean, if you use the dragon for breeding, there's no need to put it into hibernation? It allows you not to waste the food if you don't use the dragon for breeding and coli (the only things where it counts), but if you intend to take it out for breeding regularly, it's basically exploiting the system? Or am I getting it wrong? [/quote] This is why I am fine with measures to make sure it just doesn't become a secondary lair that doesn't require food. I don't plan on taking dragons out regularly that I put in, but occasionally I will find a dragon I think is perfect to mate with one or decide that I just want to see what the two dragons will look like, which is why I am concerned about the breeding cooldown. As for the geneing, while I don't regene my dragons often, I do have several that still have basic, or just had genes I don't like and wanted to regene them, but I am currently not doing anything else with them. I am not breeding them nor am I coliing them, but I would still like to be able to poke them and hand them a gene scroll if one comes out that I want them to have. (seriously thinking of tossing my progens kids in there as I don't really want to sell them, but not sure I really want them any more, but they are all mostly basic still) For me, it would be the not being able to gene dragons that would affect me the most. I only tend to breed project or fodder dragons, and have stopped tossing dragons randomly together, so that isn't a huge concern of mine. For the familiar arguments, I really would need to know why we aren't allowed to bond with familiars (though honestly, I am not surprised about it either) before I can really formulate arguments about it. However, I can understand why some people would want to, I just don't tend to have dragons with permanent familiars that I need to awaken.

[quote][i]The following restrictions will apply to dragons that are [b]inside the[/b] Hibernal Den:[/i] [list][*]Dragons in the Hibernal Den [b]cannot[/b] [list][*]lose energy or be fed. [*]breed. [*]be traded via Crossroads [b]or[/b] sold via the Auction House. [*]be put on a Coliseum team.[/list][/list] [list][*]Dragons in the Hibernal Den [b]can[/b] [list][*]equip familiars but cannot bond with them. [*]equip apparel & skins. [*]have their biography edited.[/list][/list][/quote] I think the current limitations that were listed here are fine. It makes sense that you cannot use them to breed, coli, or bond familiars [i]because[/i] they also do not consume food. So you'd essentially be getting free monetary value out of them if those things were allowed. As such it also makes sense you'd be able to do things like dress them, edit their bio, etc. Those things do not cause you to gain any sort of money while the dragons are "inactive" so it doesn't disrupt the economy. Which is the exact reason why I hope that they [i]do[/i] decide to allow the use of gene/breed/etc scrolls on dragons in the den. You do not gain any sort of direct monetary value out of changing the genes of a dragon, so I don't see a reason to [i]disallow [/i]it. I guess you could argue that when new genes come out, people could just pull out fully fed dragons and slap some scrolls on them and breed/boon them. But people do that already, so is it even really an argument? I don't believe so. However in that specific case, I think putting an extra 5-day breeding cooldown on dragons once removed [i]would make sense[/i], but I don't support it because I think it's a non-issue. The breeding cooldown should stay the same no matter if the dragon is in, out, or just removed from the den in my opinion. [quote][i]The following restrictions will apply with regards to [b]moving a dragon out of[/b] the Hibernal Den:[/i] [list][*]When a dragon is removed from the Hibernal Den, it will receive a "hibernation cooldown" of [b]30[/b] days. It [b]cannot[/b] be placed in the Hibernal Den until this duration expires. [*]There will need to be space for them in the lair.[/list] [/quote] With the exception of the 30 day cooldown, because like other people have said it just seems a little bit [i]too[/i] long. Especially with the new information that it carries over when the dragon is sold/traded -- which does make sense to prevent circumventing the cooldown, so I'm not saying that should be removed. I could just see it becoming pretty irritating. It wouldn't affect me as much as people who [i]breed[/i] their dragons, probably, but it would still greatly irritate me [i]if [/i]they decide to disallow gene/breed/etc scrolls on hibernating dragons. I have 6 pages of g1s to gene up and having to wait a month to swap them in or out of the den would be a pain. Doable, sure. I'd get over it eventually, there's ways to work around it, but it'd still be annoying. It'd be really nice if I could just chuck all my g1s in and use my lair for fodder breeding, flipping, and leveling to earn money for all my projects. Edit: Also I think that a way to swap dragons from lair to den without extra space in either would be an almost necessary feature. I usually have at least a few open spaces in my lair, but for those who don't it would be really handy.

@Vianti [quote]I think that a way to swap dragons from lair to den without extra space in either would be an almost necessary feature. I usually have at least a few open spaces in my lair, but for those who don't it would be really handy.[/quote] Ooh, interesting point about den-to-den transfers. I haven't seen that brought up yet, but I can see where there would be some uses for it. Would help with the 'denning a dragon makes it harder to sell' issue without allowing users to circumvent the cooldown entirely that way.