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TOPIC | Honey Bees Aren't Good. Here's Why.
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There are twenty thousand of bee species, and only six or seven produce honey. Many are small, some are harmless, and most are in danger. Those aren't the bees I'm talking about. I'm talking about the honey bee that's domesticated and used to create honey. These bees have been introduced around the world, and displace wild bee populations. "The study found that the honey bees had largely displaced native bees. Kato and Kawakita’s data suggests that some native New Caledonian bees are now endangered." (1) "Over 20 years of data now indicate that honeybees deliver a range of negative impacts, including direct competition with more effective native pollinators (not just other bees), and indirect effects like pollinating invasive weeds and facilitating their spread."(3) The only purpose the honey bee has? Agriculture. "And then there's the honeybee: originally imported from Europe, raised and managed by beekeepers in order to make honey or to pollinate crops like almonds. It's an agricultural animal, in the same way that sheep and cattle are." (2) When someone tells me they're farming honey bees, I shake my head and groan. There are plenty of bee farmers already, some of them trying to get their bees to pollenate their crops. However, many farmers in Nebraska (where I live) don't have their own honey bees and are just fine because they have natural pollinators like humming birds and humming bird moths. In fact, most of the bee farmers I hear of live in the large city I live in. Big cities don't hold large amounts of wild flowers like out in the country. When there aren't many flowers, thats when native and non-native compete." But in many landscapes, or when an orchard stops blooming, farmed honeybees can compete with wild bees for food, making it harder for wild species to survive." (2) Why are plants so sparse? Why can't other bees pollinate elsewhere? "These native bees have evolved with their partner plants for millennia, making the natives particularly good pollination partners for specific sets of native plants—not only the flowers that decorate our wild lands and forests, but also for native crops like squashes, tomatoes and blueberries."(3) My conclusion is complicated. Don't seek out and kill the honey bee, but, don't support it either. Support your native bees by setting out more native pollinator friendly plants. [quote name="LizardKing" date="2019-04-27 13:14:12" ] Yeah, honey bees and native bees fill different niches, but food competition isn't the only threat honey bees pose. (For the record, I absolutely believe honey bees and native bees can and should coexist, this just helped me realize that a very important issue with bees hasn't been brought up yet) The spread of varroa mites are probably one of the most damaging things apis mellifera has done to native populations, and I'm actually shocked it wasn't mentioned before looking back. I would not be surprised if this is one of the prevailing reasons honey bees are replacing native ones. So, [url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213224415300158]manged bees do spread parasites to wild ones[/url]. And I wish wish I had a picture of the graph, but at a lecture given to my local beekeeping association, given by the awesome professor I linked to before, the largest reported cause of colony death in captivated hives was varroa mites. Luckily, there are pesticides beekeepers can use to kill ht mites, control the population enough to keep the colony alive. However, native bees don't have that privilege, and when they get varroa, they die. Whereas beekeepers can split their colony, start a new hive and treat this time, the native bees don't stand a chance. So yeah, just basically adding another issue with honey bees, sadly it's not just out competing with food. Again, I absolutely believe that all bees can and should coexist, just wanted to kinda take this and launch into another informative tangent lol ....... Anyone more interested in varroa can find a lot of info at the [url=https://honeybeehealthcoalition.org/]Honey Bee Health Coalition [/url], and if you go through the site you'll see the science supports aggressive treatment, meaning use of chemicals and pesticides. Any honey that acts like it's holier than thou for never using pesticides is part of the reason the honey bee can be such a dangerous invasive. [/quote] ----- Please note that I'm only in high school. I am not a professional scientist. Please do not attack anyone here or I will remove the thread completely. This is an unpopular opinion. ----- Sources: [url=https://daily.jstor.org/are-honey-bees-bad-for-wild-bees/] Source 1[/url] [url=https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/27/581007165/honeybees-help-farmers-but-they-dont-help-the-environment]Source 2[/url] [url=https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/bees-gone-wild/]Source 3[/url]
There are twenty thousand of bee species, and only six or seven produce honey. Many are small, some are harmless, and most are in danger. Those aren't the bees I'm talking about. I'm talking about the honey bee that's domesticated and used to create honey. These bees have been introduced around the world, and displace wild bee populations. "The study found that the honey bees had largely displaced native bees. Kato and Kawakita’s data suggests that some native New Caledonian bees are now endangered." (1)
"Over 20 years of data now indicate that honeybees deliver a range of negative impacts, including direct competition with more effective native pollinators (not just other bees), and indirect effects like pollinating invasive weeds and facilitating their spread."(3)
The only purpose the honey bee has? Agriculture. "And then there's the honeybee: originally imported from Europe, raised and managed by beekeepers in order to make honey or to pollinate crops like almonds. It's an agricultural animal, in the same way that sheep and cattle are." (2) When someone tells me they're farming honey bees, I shake my head and groan. There are plenty of bee farmers already, some of them trying to get their bees to pollenate their crops. However, many farmers in Nebraska (where I live) don't have their own honey bees and are just fine because they have natural pollinators like humming birds and humming bird moths. In fact, most of the bee farmers I hear of live in the large city I live in. Big cities don't hold large amounts of wild flowers like out in the country. When there aren't many flowers, thats when native and non-native compete." But in many landscapes, or when an orchard stops blooming, farmed honeybees can compete with wild bees for food, making it harder for wild species to survive." (2)
Why are plants so sparse? Why can't other bees pollinate elsewhere?
"These native bees have evolved with their partner plants for millennia, making the natives particularly good pollination partners for specific sets of native plants—not only the flowers that decorate our wild lands and forests, but also for native crops like squashes, tomatoes and blueberries."(3)

My conclusion is complicated. Don't seek out and kill the honey bee, but, don't support it either. Support your native bees by setting out more native pollinator friendly plants.
LizardKing wrote on 2019-04-27 13:14:12:

Yeah, honey bees and native bees fill different niches, but food competition isn't the only threat honey bees pose.

(For the record, I absolutely believe honey bees and native bees can and should coexist, this just helped me realize that a very important issue with bees hasn't been brought up yet)

The spread of varroa mites are probably one of the most damaging things apis mellifera has done to native populations, and I'm actually shocked it wasn't mentioned before looking back. I would not be surprised if this is one of the prevailing reasons honey bees are replacing native ones.

So, manged bees do spread parasites to wild ones.

And I wish wish I had a picture of the graph, but at a lecture given to my local beekeeping association, given by the awesome professor I linked to before, the largest reported cause of colony death in captivated hives was varroa mites. Luckily, there are pesticides beekeepers can use to kill ht mites, control the population enough to keep the colony alive. However, native bees don't have that privilege, and when they get varroa, they die. Whereas beekeepers can split their colony, start a new hive and treat this time, the native bees don't stand a chance.


So yeah, just basically adding another issue with honey bees, sadly it's not just out competing with food. Again, I absolutely believe that all bees can and should coexist, just wanted to kinda take this and launch into another informative tangent lol

.......


Anyone more interested in varroa can find a lot of info at the Honey Bee Health Coalition , and if you go through the site you'll see the science supports aggressive treatment, meaning use of chemicals and pesticides.
Any honey that acts like it's holier than thou for never using pesticides is part of the reason the honey bee can be such a dangerous invasive.

Please note that I'm only in high school. I am not a professional scientist. Please do not attack anyone here or I will remove the thread completely. This is an unpopular opinion.
Sources:
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3
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Now, if you really wanted to get on people's bad side, you'd do this but with outdoor/feral cats since them and rats are possibly the absolute worst animals in terms of decimating native populations.

But anyway, this was interesting! I didn't realize that honeybees can have such a negative impact on other bees.
Now, if you really wanted to get on people's bad side, you'd do this but with outdoor/feral cats since them and rats are possibly the absolute worst animals in terms of decimating native populations.

But anyway, this was interesting! I didn't realize that honeybees can have such a negative impact on other bees.
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@DesertUmbra
Apis Mellifera are native in Europe though, unlike domesticated cats they do have a native ecosystem. I'd compare them a lot more to rats, being rats are native somewhere, but domestic cats have no environment to belong to, that issue is just on a whole other level. Probably why it is such a touchy subject like you said lol

.....

But, yes agreeing with everything in this topic.

As long as well have large specialty agriculture, we need the European honey bee outside of it's native range. Large scale farms of non-native produce needs non-native pollination. If apis mellifera were to die out in North America, all of our non-native and non-wind pollinated food will dwindle greatly in production.
But that, in all likelihood, is not going to happen. As long as the honey bee has economic value, people will not let it go extinct in North America. Don't have a readily link-able source for that, got it straight from a lecture at bee college. If people no longer see profit in the honey bee, then we might have problems, but until then, we're fine.

Apis mellifera is not the bee we should be saving here. They are livestock, not wildlife.

.....

@Eligos
Since I can tell you're pretty enthusiastic about this, I think you'd quite like Honey Bee Suite, a site dedicated to the nuances and balance of keeping honey bees in North America, but while trying to protect our native bees too. She also has tons of resource on how to help native bees, not just with food but also how to provide habitats and whatnot.

I'd also like to recommend you University of Florida's entomology resources, they have one of the best entomology departments/programs out there. Not saying you should enroll there, I sure as hell am not, but they have amazing resources!
This is there blog, though it is geared primarily towards beekeepers so you might have to wade through to the content you'd find more interesting, but it's absolutely there.

And this is the professor I paraphrased, you can find a lot of his work in academic and non-academic magazines and papers. He's very big on what you're talking about, I remember him saying in another class that people who become beekeepers to help the bees soon realize it's one of the worst things you can do for bees

I actually wanted to keep honey bees for sometime, but realized I couldn't morally justify it. I didn't quite like the idea of deliberately harboring and abetting an invasive species.
And on a final note, I think you're selling yourself short by saying this is an "unpopular opinion". This is a well backed analysis of data and research. You may just be in high school, but you know your ****. If anything this is the unpopular facts lol, people are going to have a hard time finding actual data to contradict what you're saying.
@DesertUmbra
Apis Mellifera are native in Europe though, unlike domesticated cats they do have a native ecosystem. I'd compare them a lot more to rats, being rats are native somewhere, but domestic cats have no environment to belong to, that issue is just on a whole other level. Probably why it is such a touchy subject like you said lol

.....

But, yes agreeing with everything in this topic.

As long as well have large specialty agriculture, we need the European honey bee outside of it's native range. Large scale farms of non-native produce needs non-native pollination. If apis mellifera were to die out in North America, all of our non-native and non-wind pollinated food will dwindle greatly in production.
But that, in all likelihood, is not going to happen. As long as the honey bee has economic value, people will not let it go extinct in North America. Don't have a readily link-able source for that, got it straight from a lecture at bee college. If people no longer see profit in the honey bee, then we might have problems, but until then, we're fine.

Apis mellifera is not the bee we should be saving here. They are livestock, not wildlife.

.....

@Eligos
Since I can tell you're pretty enthusiastic about this, I think you'd quite like Honey Bee Suite, a site dedicated to the nuances and balance of keeping honey bees in North America, but while trying to protect our native bees too. She also has tons of resource on how to help native bees, not just with food but also how to provide habitats and whatnot.

I'd also like to recommend you University of Florida's entomology resources, they have one of the best entomology departments/programs out there. Not saying you should enroll there, I sure as hell am not, but they have amazing resources!
This is there blog, though it is geared primarily towards beekeepers so you might have to wade through to the content you'd find more interesting, but it's absolutely there.

And this is the professor I paraphrased, you can find a lot of his work in academic and non-academic magazines and papers. He's very big on what you're talking about, I remember him saying in another class that people who become beekeepers to help the bees soon realize it's one of the worst things you can do for bees

I actually wanted to keep honey bees for sometime, but realized I couldn't morally justify it. I didn't quite like the idea of deliberately harboring and abetting an invasive species.
And on a final note, I think you're selling yourself short by saying this is an "unpopular opinion". This is a well backed analysis of data and research. You may just be in high school, but you know your ****. If anything this is the unpopular facts lol, people are going to have a hard time finding actual data to contradict what you're saying.
And in the spirit of Earth Day,


How to build bee habitats
How to attract native pollinators
Easy DIY bee nest
A harder DIY bee nest
And a native plant finder!


Though, from experience and what I've seen countless beekeepers say (most beekeepers end up getting really into native bees too), letting weeds grow is one of the best things you can do. Just having a bit of your yard set up un-maintained is not only ridiculously easy, but ridiculously productive. My sister has a square in our backyard of just wildflowers, and not only attracts a slew of native bees and other pollinators, but entire ecosystems. We have a bunch of predatory bugs like assassin bugs and parasitoid wasps (wasps are of course another important pollinator)...


Alright I get too passionate about bees lol I think I'll shut up now
And in the spirit of Earth Day,


How to build bee habitats
How to attract native pollinators
Easy DIY bee nest
A harder DIY bee nest
And a native plant finder!


Though, from experience and what I've seen countless beekeepers say (most beekeepers end up getting really into native bees too), letting weeds grow is one of the best things you can do. Just having a bit of your yard set up un-maintained is not only ridiculously easy, but ridiculously productive. My sister has a square in our backyard of just wildflowers, and not only attracts a slew of native bees and other pollinators, but entire ecosystems. We have a bunch of predatory bugs like assassin bugs and parasitoid wasps (wasps are of course another important pollinator)...


Alright I get too passionate about bees lol I think I'll shut up now
@LizardKing Sure, but I meant more that people are quite protective of their pet cats, so whenever people bring up that domestic cats are ecologically quite destructive, people seem to take this as suggesting we get rid of pet cats.

It's fine to have cats, just please please keep them inside, but I've heard people get offended by that as well since they believe it's not fair to the cat.
@LizardKing Sure, but I meant more that people are quite protective of their pet cats, so whenever people bring up that domestic cats are ecologically quite destructive, people seem to take this as suggesting we get rid of pet cats.

It's fine to have cats, just please please keep them inside, but I've heard people get offended by that as well since they believe it's not fair to the cat.
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@DesertUmbra
Oh yes I think I know exactly what you mean actually lol
I remember someone on a naturalist forum brought up that topic, and shared an article proposing solutions to feral cats problems and it did end up getting a bit ugly. A lot of good scientific people all of sudden abandoning faith in empirical evidence, a lot of offense taken to being told of how to handle pets while minimizing ecological harm...
@DesertUmbra
Oh yes I think I know exactly what you mean actually lol
I remember someone on a naturalist forum brought up that topic, and shared an article proposing solutions to feral cats problems and it did end up getting a bit ugly. A lot of good scientific people all of sudden abandoning faith in empirical evidence, a lot of offense taken to being told of how to handle pets while minimizing ecological harm...
[quote name="Eligos" date="2019-04-26 17:11:54" ] These bees have been introduced around the world, and displace wild pee populations. [/quote] Might wanna fix that typo [emoji=guardian tongue] Interesting though! I've never even thought about how honey bees affect native bees before.
Eligos wrote on 2019-04-26 17:11:54:
These bees have been introduced around the world, and displace wild pee populations.
Might wanna fix that typo
Interesting though! I've never even thought about how honey bees affect native bees before.
Hmm the thing about honey bees is, if we plant more plants that native bees like, we can save native bees AND studies show that the European honeybee can easily coexist with native bees provided there are enough native plants.

Native bees evolved for certain plants. Honeybees are generalists. If there are lots of native plants and even non-native plants, honeybees will take a little bit of each, leaving plenty for the native bees.

Source: I know personally several bee scientists who have discussed this in length
Hmm the thing about honey bees is, if we plant more plants that native bees like, we can save native bees AND studies show that the European honeybee can easily coexist with native bees provided there are enough native plants.

Native bees evolved for certain plants. Honeybees are generalists. If there are lots of native plants and even non-native plants, honeybees will take a little bit of each, leaving plenty for the native bees.

Source: I know personally several bee scientists who have discussed this in length
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So my dog stomping on them is a good thing?

He k n e w
HE K N O W S
So my dog stomping on them is a good thing?

He k n e w
HE K N O W S
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Is it possible to raise bee hives of threatened bees by humans-basically replace the honey bee that is currently the main thing with the native bees? Obviously since the native bees would be more specific they'd need more native plants planted but that could possibly be done.

Edit-I keep thinking about killer bees. You can get honey from them...but they're also a hybridized species too.
Is it possible to raise bee hives of threatened bees by humans-basically replace the honey bee that is currently the main thing with the native bees? Obviously since the native bees would be more specific they'd need more native plants planted but that could possibly be done.

Edit-I keep thinking about killer bees. You can get honey from them...but they're also a hybridized species too.
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