After seeing the [b][url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/2216742/1#post_2216742]"All or Nothing" Festival Items[/url][/b] thread and commenting I thought I'd make a new post for the ideas I put in my response. Mostly because I didn't want them to just be thrown to the void, but also because many comments argued either for or against unretiring, but with no solution how.
[b]So, very briefly, I am FOR unretiring all festival items (i.e. ONLY festival items, does not include KS, Beta, or downtime) and I want to have discussion on how to do it.[/b]
[center][url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/2216742/4#post_27935341]>>>You can read the original comment here<<<[/url][/center]
My ideas for bringing the items back uses the newly announced Joxar's Spare Inventory with a few different methods. They're all individual solutions but using more than one might work.
[LIST=1]
[*][b]Include all retired holiday items in the crates.[/b]
[*][b]Include all retired items in the crates but at a decreased chance.[/b]
[*][b]Create another crate with a pool of only retired items OR just a higher rate of them, but for a significantly larger cost.[/b] (treasure or gems)
[*][b]Create another crate that only has retired items but costs multiple prismatic coins (say 3)[/b], which means it would only be obtainable every 3 festivals or through buying other's crates or coins. (high cost, indefinite return)
[*][b]Have a section of Joxar's backlog to buy the specific retired item you like, but they cost multiple prismatic coins[/b] (High cost but definite return).
[/LIST]
Idea 4 and 5 would also work very well with @Inklizard 's [url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/2217124/1#post_2217124]more ways to acquire prism tokens[/url]
All these methods reintroduce the retired items back but still keep them difficult to obtain and in smaller quantities, so this way it gives newer players a chance to get these items at all, and they'll retain a high value.
Thank you for reading and I hope some of these ideas seem plausible and make the idea of unretiring festival items to those opposed to it a little more acceptable.
Please discuss! :)
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It seems the main consensus is no RNG in regards to retired items, and in the case of using Prismatic Tokens for purchasing directly from the backlog, the number of tokens needed should be way higher. This definitely should be the case now where 3 tokens can be acquired per festival w/o buying from the market (1 from crate, and 2 brewed).
[quote name="DragonSage" date=2017-06-24 20:18:22]
To me that's still too small. 90,000*6=540,000. Assuming a 1,000 T to G ratio, the coatl scroll which is 2,000 G is 2,000,000 T. So you are looking at about 22 Prism Tokens or two years if you don't purchase elsewhere. It may seem like a lot, but its not really as players with plenty of treasure on hand will buy the tokens off of other players
[/quote]
will add more input in a bit
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[b]EDIT[/b]
[b]Right now this thread is looking a bit like [i]"All or Nothing" Festival items 2: Electric Boogaloo[/i] so I feel like I should make a clarification. This thread is NOT arguing whether or not retired festival items should or should not be brought back (there are other threads for that), BUT in the chance they ever are, what would be a good way to do so.
In the end, all of these ideas are just that: ideas. There's no guarantee any of this will be implemented in the future, but I think it's nice to discuss it anyway.
In the future, maybe nothing will change and we'll stick with this part retired, part not set up. Or maybe everything will be retired. Or maybe all will be unretired. In the case of the latter, maybe these ideas can have some input. We just don't know!
So for now I just want everyone to have nice civil discussion, throwing ideas around and working together on a solution that may or may not happen. But I like to think it's fun anyway :)[/b]
After seeing the
"All or Nothing" Festival Items thread and commenting I thought I'd make a new post for the ideas I put in my response. Mostly because I didn't want them to just be thrown to the void, but also because many comments argued either for or against unretiring, but with no solution how.
So, very briefly, I am FOR unretiring all festival items (i.e. ONLY festival items, does not include KS, Beta, or downtime) and I want to have discussion on how to do it.
My ideas for bringing the items back uses the newly announced Joxar's Spare Inventory with a few different methods. They're all individual solutions but using more than one might work.
- Include all retired holiday items in the crates.
- Include all retired items in the crates but at a decreased chance.
- Create another crate with a pool of only retired items OR just a higher rate of them, but for a significantly larger cost. (treasure or gems)
- Create another crate that only has retired items but costs multiple prismatic coins (say 3), which means it would only be obtainable every 3 festivals or through buying other's crates or coins. (high cost, indefinite return)
- Have a section of Joxar's backlog to buy the specific retired item you like, but they cost multiple prismatic coins (High cost but definite return).
Idea 4 and 5 would also work very well with @
Inklizard 's
more ways to acquire prism tokens
All these methods reintroduce the retired items back but still keep them difficult to obtain and in smaller quantities, so this way it gives newer players a chance to get these items at all, and they'll retain a high value.
Thank you for reading and I hope some of these ideas seem plausible and make the idea of unretiring festival items to those opposed to it a little more acceptable.
Please discuss! :)
_________________________________________________________________________
It seems the main consensus is no RNG in regards to retired items, and in the case of using Prismatic Tokens for purchasing directly from the backlog, the number of tokens needed should be way higher. This definitely should be the case now where 3 tokens can be acquired per festival w/o buying from the market (1 from crate, and 2 brewed).
DragonSage wrote on 2017-06-24:
To me that's still too small. 90,000*6=540,000. Assuming a 1,000 T to G ratio, the coatl scroll which is 2,000 G is 2,000,000 T. So you are looking at about 22 Prism Tokens or two years if you don't purchase elsewhere. It may seem like a lot, but its not really as players with plenty of treasure on hand will buy the tokens off of other players
will add more input in a bit
_________________________________________________________________________
EDIT
Right now this thread is looking a bit like "All or Nothing" Festival items 2: Electric Boogaloo so I feel like I should make a clarification. This thread is NOT arguing whether or not retired festival items should or should not be brought back (there are other threads for that), BUT in the chance they ever are, what would be a good way to do so.
In the end, all of these ideas are just that: ideas. There's no guarantee any of this will be implemented in the future, but I think it's nice to discuss it anyway.
In the future, maybe nothing will change and we'll stick with this part retired, part not set up. Or maybe everything will be retired. Or maybe all will be unretired. In the case of the latter, maybe these ideas can have some input. We just don't know!
So for now I just want everyone to have nice civil discussion, throwing ideas around and working together on a solution that may or may not happen. But I like to think it's fun anyway :)
Support. This gives a fair shot without removing all the hard work of obtaining the items, and is actually obtainable rather than an impossible goal. If they can put recolors in the box, why not originals?
Not saying the recolors aren't nice. They are, in their own way. But if I decide I want a Golem Gauntlet for a dragon because it goes with the color of his other apparel, a Gauntlet-recolor just won't cut the mustard.
Support. This gives a fair shot without removing all the hard work of obtaining the items, and is actually obtainable rather than an impossible goal. If they can put recolors in the box, why not originals?
Not saying the recolors aren't nice. They are, in their own way. But if I decide I want a Golem Gauntlet for a dragon because it goes with the color of his other apparel, a Gauntlet-recolor just won't cut the mustard.
~There is no such thing as sanity. Everyone is insane. The true question is, how insane are you, relative to everyone else?~
I like #2 the best. It reminds me of Chicken Smoothie's method of retired item re-introduction.
But based on other threads I've seen, the most accepted re-introduction method is making a second edition of these items. They'd clearly have the second edition watermark, but familiars would take the same place in the Beastiary (thus only one could be attached to a dragon and bonded with). This would allow the first editions to retain their value while the second editions would allow more of the player base to enjoy them.
I like #2 the best. It reminds me of Chicken Smoothie's method of retired item re-introduction.
But based on other threads I've seen, the most accepted re-introduction method is making a second edition of these items. They'd clearly have the second edition watermark, but familiars would take the same place in the Beastiary (thus only one could be attached to a dragon and bonded with). This would allow the first editions to retain their value while the second editions would allow more of the player base to enjoy them.
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If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?
i'm most in favor of #2 and possibly #3. i think a random chance at a retired item in a pool of more common items would do a better job of keeping those retired items rare, opposed to buying or otherwise obtaining chests that guarantee a retired item.
couple the chance at a retired item with the high cost of obtaining the chest mentioned in #3 and you've got yourself a nice treasure sink. i wouldn't support that chest costing gems, because then it becomes a bit too pay to win for my liking.
i'm most in favor of #2 and possibly #3. i think a random chance at a retired item in a pool of more common items would do a better job of keeping those retired items rare, opposed to buying or otherwise obtaining chests that guarantee a retired item.
couple the chance at a retired item with the high cost of obtaining the chest mentioned in #3 and you've got yourself a nice treasure sink. i wouldn't support that chest costing gems, because then it becomes a bit too pay to win for my liking.
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I'm basically in Support of most anything to recycle Retired Items in a way between "Never Release" and "Bearpocalypse". I certainly wouldn't mind Gema's "Second Edition" idea either.
I think 2 and 3 are best. I like the idea of 4, but I worry about the amount of people that would multiaccount in order to gather Tokens more quickly -- I do like the idea of using that limited currency to acquire Retired Items, though.
I will take "High Cost, Definite Return" over the mercy of the RNG most days.
I'm basically in Support of most anything to recycle Retired Items in a way between "Never Release" and "Bearpocalypse". I certainly wouldn't mind Gema's "Second Edition" idea either.
I think 2 and 3 are best. I like the idea of 4, but I worry about the amount of people that would multiaccount in order to gather Tokens more quickly -- I do like the idea of using that limited currency to acquire Retired Items, though.
I will take "High Cost, Definite Return" over the mercy of the RNG most days.
pretty much agreeing with gemma and ali here, i prefer knowing I can save up for some time (I don't really care how long it takes me) and still have a shot at obtaining an item for a more fixed price over having to worry if i can still buy said item in a few years from now
pretty much agreeing with gemma and ali here, i prefer knowing I can save up for some time (I don't really care how long it takes me) and still have a shot at obtaining an item for a more fixed price over having to worry if i can still buy said item in a few years from now
Why do we need another thing which is pretty much "rewarded by RNG"?
Seriously, coli drops are bad enough, gathering is bad enough.
Absolute no support. FR doesn't need more mechanics encouraging luck and nothing else.
imo, if retired items have to come back, it is after years of OPEN REGISTRATION and not before. And, have something akin to a REWARD, not a GAMBLE.
At least, it would make the site interesting instead of having yet-more-RNG dictate who gets what.
Why do we need another thing which is pretty much "rewarded by RNG"?
Seriously, coli drops are bad enough, gathering is bad enough.
Absolute no support. FR doesn't need more mechanics encouraging luck and nothing else.
imo, if retired items have to come back, it is after years of OPEN REGISTRATION and not before. And, have something akin to a REWARD, not a GAMBLE.
At least, it would make the site interesting instead of having yet-more-RNG dictate who gets what.
No support. Retired is retired. They are already getting really close to that line with the recolors. I doubt we'll get recolors of the kickstarter or beta tester stuff though.
No support. Retired is retired. They are already getting really close to that line with the recolors. I doubt we'll get recolors of the kickstarter or beta tester stuff though.
I feel like rather than saying "retired is retired" we need to ask why it's retired. Others have said it better but for me, rather than having some festival items retired and some not they all need equal treatment (a la the "all or nothing" thread, though i'd much prefer all). And this argument only applies to the festivals as Beta and KS items were rewards for funding and helping the site before public launch, which is pretty much where I draw the line. Festivals all cam after launch, so why aren't they all getting equal treatment?
As for recolors and second editions, I think they don't quite solve the same issues. In the end they're still different items and people will end up wanting both the new and original. Honestly most of the recolors don't seem very necessary (though i'd be lying if I said I'm not adoring the new apparel recolors).
I don't want this to come off mean, but saying "no support" because of RNG when I put forth some options that lessen or don't have those elements seems silly. I do agree that there is a plethora of (often frustrating) luck based things (gathering, coliseum, chests, etc.), so maybe discussions on ways to keep item value without relying on rng would be good!
Also I do appreciate your idea, Sopheroo of introducing retired items back after a set period of time. Honestly it may be years down the road before this whole debacle is addressed anyway, but when/if it is an event around the old retired items could be cool.
Like maybe the anniversary but themed/featuring the retired items? Maybe brewing the old apparel/familiars like the celebration sage apparel this year? Unless you mean dropping the set into our hoards like Marva's april fool items, which would ensure only one set per account but could also re-spark the "wasted effort" argument.
I'm no good at responding and not great with words, but I think discussing these things and thinking of solutions is part of the fun. In the end I think we all want Flight Rising to be a better site that we can enjoy.
I feel like rather than saying "retired is retired" we need to ask why it's retired. Others have said it better but for me, rather than having some festival items retired and some not they all need equal treatment (a la the "all or nothing" thread, though i'd much prefer all). And this argument only applies to the festivals as Beta and KS items were rewards for funding and helping the site before public launch, which is pretty much where I draw the line. Festivals all cam after launch, so why aren't they all getting equal treatment?
As for recolors and second editions, I think they don't quite solve the same issues. In the end they're still different items and people will end up wanting both the new and original. Honestly most of the recolors don't seem very necessary (though i'd be lying if I said I'm not adoring the new apparel recolors).
I don't want this to come off mean, but saying "no support" because of RNG when I put forth some options that lessen or don't have those elements seems silly. I do agree that there is a plethora of (often frustrating) luck based things (gathering, coliseum, chests, etc.), so maybe discussions on ways to keep item value without relying on rng would be good!
Also I do appreciate your idea, Sopheroo of introducing retired items back after a set period of time. Honestly it may be years down the road before this whole debacle is addressed anyway, but when/if it is an event around the old retired items could be cool.
Like maybe the anniversary but themed/featuring the retired items? Maybe brewing the old apparel/familiars like the celebration sage apparel this year? Unless you mean dropping the set into our hoards like Marva's april fool items, which would ensure only one set per account but could also re-spark the "wasted effort" argument.
I'm no good at responding and not great with words, but I think discussing these things and thinking of solutions is part of the fun. In the end I think we all want Flight Rising to be a better site that we can enjoy.
"Retired is retired" is a
circular reasoning fallacy.
~~~
Yes, there will still be a demand with second edition, water marked item because some players will want both. That's good because it doesn't ruin the market for players trying to sell the first edition. However, it would satisfy other players who just want to own one even if it is a second edition, making the goal more obtainable.
It parallels low ID number dragons. Some people love them; others don't care. But regardless, a low ID number dragon will sell more than its identical twin with a higher number.
And that's the purpose of second editions. The firsts will still sell for high, but the seconds make things obtainable for more players' enjoyment.
"Retired is retired" is a
circular reasoning fallacy.
~~~
Yes, there will still be a demand with second edition, water marked item because some players will want both. That's good because it doesn't ruin the market for players trying to sell the first edition. However, it would satisfy other players who just want to own one even if it is a second edition, making the goal more obtainable.
It parallels low ID number dragons. Some people love them; others don't care. But regardless, a low ID number dragon will sell more than its identical twin with a higher number.
And that's the purpose of second editions. The firsts will still sell for high, but the seconds make things obtainable for more players' enjoyment.
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If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?
